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Kunal Khullar is a contributing writer at Tom\u2019s Hardware.\u00a0 He is a long time technology journalist and reviewer specializing in PC components and peripherals, and welcomes any and every question around building a PC. ","collapsible":{"enabled":true,"maxHeight":250,"readMoreText":"Read more","readLessText":"Read less"}}), "https://slice.vanilla.futurecdn.net/13-4-24/js/authorBio.js"); } else { console.error('%c FTE ','background: #9306F9; color: #ffffff','no lazy slice hydration function available'); } Kunal Khullar Social Links Navigation News Contributor Kunal Khullar is a contributing writer at Tom’s Hardware. He is a long time technology journalist and reviewer specializing in PC components and peripherals, and welcomes any and every question around building a PC.
BillyBuerger I'm guessing they're using Molex micro fit instead of the standard mini fit connectors currently used. I'm sure there are some very small systems that the size reduction will help. But an 8-pin min compared to 8-pin micro is not that much different. So is that slightly smaller size worth the change to compatibility with existing hardware? And 12VHPWR/12v-2×6 seem to use this as well and that has had its issues. Not saying the connector is the problem but maybe it's part of it. Especially as CPUs are trying to match GPUs in the stupid amount of power they are using now. Don't need the CPU power connectors melting as well. Everything else sounds great and I still wish this would catch on in the DIY market and not just with OEMs. The PMBus stuff could be an actual advantage over ATX as the PSU could indicate if the GPU is pulling too much power or if the wires are not balanced and tell the system it needs to cut back on power usage to prevent damage. Maybe a feature like that would help push adoption. Reply
setx Intel says that these smaller connectors save motherboard space and reduce material costs. Where did we hear that recently… right, everyone knows. Don't touch the connectors unless you can guarantee greater or equal safety margin. 12VO is stupid idea in the first place. Why move the conversion burden for +5V to motherboard? Why not rise voltage to 48V for power-hungry GPUs and maybe even CPUs? The only thought of this standard is cost reduction for manufacturers. Reply
danwat1234 setx said: Where did we hear that recently… right, everyone knows. Don't touch the connectors unless you can guarantee greater or equal safety margin. 12VO is stupid idea in the first place. Why move the conversion burden for +5V to motherboard? Why not rise voltage to 48V for power-hungry GPUs and maybe even CPUs? The only thought of this standard is cost reduction for manufacturers. Good point! The Auto industry I believe is moving towards 24 or 48 volt from 12, why not PCs? Reply
Notton setx said: Where did we hear that recently… right, everyone knows. Don't touch the connectors unless you can guarantee greater or equal safety margin. 12VO is stupid idea in the first place. Why move the conversion burden for +5V to motherboard? Why not rise voltage to 48V for power-hungry GPUs and maybe even CPUs? The only thought of this standard is cost reduction for manufacturers. I understand the hesitation, but the ATX 24-pin it replaces barely pushes 125W, and most of that only happens when a 75W PCIe card is plugged in. The CPU and VRAM get up to 300W from the 8-pin EPS-12V connector. The mobo also needs +3.3V if NVMe SSDs are connected. As for 48VDC or 24VDC, not sure how much space that would occupy. They could most certainly use 20V, which is what laptops and mini-PCs run off of. Reply
BillyBuerger The 24pin ATX connector is from a legacy when PCs mostly ran on 5V and 3.3V and it was not as easy and efficient as it is today to convert voltage. It really has no practical reason other then to be backwards compatible. Which is a good thing but it does mean it's more difficult to improve and utilize more modern designs. PSUs today are already almost entirely 12V-only. 5V and 3.3V are regulated from the 12V output. 12VO just puts this part on the motherboard. Yes, that does mean some more space and costs on the motherboard. But this also means the motherboard only needs to build out what it needs to support. The PSU has to put more into these other voltages so that it works on any motherboard. Motherboards are already converting the higher voltages to lower ones as needed for the specific chips the board uses. So I don't see this as a huge issue. As noted OEMs have been doing this for years without any real issue other than they haven't been following a standard so every OEM does their own thing. Not sure if any of them are actually using ATX 12VO now but I sure hope they are. That's why a crappy Dell PC with desktop hardward can idle less then 15W while it's difficult to get similar hardware on ATX below 20W. While a higher 24V or 48V would be helpful for stupid high powered GPUs, this also means adding yet another voltage rail the PSU has to generate. So 24, 12, 5, 3.3 and 5VSB. This also makes little sense. Maybe a 24VO PSU with the same voltage regulation on the mothboard for the lower voltages needed. It's the actual 12V hardware that would make that more difficult. That's mostly fans and hard drives. 24V fans are a thing but not common but I don't think 24V hard drives exist. Reply
Notton Oh and that reminds me… There is a -12V line on the ATX 24-pin connector. Apparently it was for the signaling in the RS-232 connector. Reply
ezst036 How about they put these connectors on Nvidia GPUs and maybe the melting will stop. Reply
thestryker BillyBuerger said: I'm guessing they're using Molex micro fit instead of the standard mini fit connectors currently used. I'm sure there are some very small systems that the size reduction will help. But an 8-pin min compared to 8-pin micro is not that much different. So is that slightly smaller size worth the change to compatibility with existing hardware? And 12VHPWR/12v-2×6 seem to use this as well and that has had its issues. Not saying the connector is the problem but maybe it's part of it. Especially as CPUs are trying to match GPUs in the stupid amount of power they are using now. Don't need the CPU power connectors melting as well. It's not really comparable to the PCIe connector situation because they're not changing the EPS12V specification. These CPU power connectors will still have 4x 12V pins to meet the 300W power delivery. In the case of PCIe the specification went from 12x 12V pins to 6x 12V pins for 600W power delivery on top of the connector shrink. I think these would actually be perfect to use for video cards. Using two wouldn't be much larger than the 12VHPWR/2×6, it would have two more 12V pins, and would require power delivery to be split. While that wouldn't eliminate failures, as even 6/8-pin PCIe did, it would likely make them much less prevalent. Compatibility isn't really much of a concern either because ATX12VO basically doesn't exist in the retail market (even though I wish it did). Reply
thestryker setx said: 12VO is stupid idea in the first place. Why move the conversion burden for +5V to motherboard? Why not rise voltage to 48V for power-hungry GPUs and maybe even CPUs? Power conversion on a motherboard is largely a non-issue. OEMs have been doing this for decades with their proprietary PSU designs and laptops do this as well. Switching the power infrastructure to 24/48V on the other hand is a huge problem. It's possible to do for high margin applications, and there is indeed a 48VHPWR standard for servers, but shifting a consumer market where there are lower margins is harder. Due to maintenance/support requirements this would mean running simultaneous part supply for OEMs. This would increase storage requirements and could easily cause supply cost increases as their suppliers would be needing to run multiple lines as well. As for the barrier to retail adoption just look at the enthusiast reaction when Intel first announced ATX12VO: you'd have thought they were murdering puppies. ATX12VO would have meant almost nothing negative for anyone buying a new system. The biggest potential drawback is a lack of backwards compatibility, but dual spec power supplies are possible so that's not a real complaint. Even though it would have been better for everyone in the supply chain as well here we are years later and there's no retail presence. That's how universal the backlash seems to have been. Reply
setx Notton said: The CPU and VRAM get up to 300W from the 8-pin EPS-12V connector. Surprise: it's exactly the EPS connector that they are going to convert to cheaper version in this revision. thestryker said: As for the barrier to retail adoption just look at the enthusiast reaction when Intel first announced ATX12VO: you'd have thought they were murdering puppies. Because, again, ATX12VO is no innovation. For 48V adoption might be slow but I doubt there would be any backlash. Reply
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- https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/power-supplies/atx12vo-v3-standard-shrinks-the-connector-and-maximizes-power-efficiency-new-8-pin-connector-also-brings-smarter-power-supply-monitoring#main
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