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Kunal Khullar is a contributing writer at Tom\u2019s Hardware.\u00a0 He is a long time technology journalist and reviewer specializing in PC components and peripherals, and welcomes any and every question around building a PC. ","collapsible":{"enabled":true,"maxHeight":250,"readMoreText":"Read more","readLessText":"Read less"}}), "https://slice.vanilla.futurecdn.net/13-4-23/js/authorBio.js"); } else { console.error('%c FTE ','background: #9306F9; color: #ffffff','no lazy slice hydration function available'); } Kunal Khullar Social Links Navigation News Contributor Kunal Khullar is a contributing writer at Tom’s Hardware. He is a long time technology journalist and reviewer specializing in PC components and peripherals, and welcomes any and every question around building a PC.
garbilkee So Intel releases a faulty CPU, but it's up to Mozilla to commit their resources to fix the issue. Great Job, Intel! Reply
usertests I don't think the used market has devalued Raptor Lake CPUs due to degradation problems. I looked up 13700K and see it going for $300. Also muddying the waters is that some 13th/14th gen are actually Alder Lake. Reply
DS426 garbilkee said: So Intel releases a faulty CPU, but it's up to Mozilla to commit their resources to fix the issue. Great Job, Intel! Lots of dev resources from probably thousands of software providers that were consumed investigating and in some cases patching the issue. The total fallout is hard to imagine and still ongoing today, though fortunately (and finally) largely mitigated. Reply
DS426 usertests said: I don't think the used market has devalued Raptor Lake CPUs due to degradation problems. I looked up 13700K and see it going for $300. Also muddying the waters is that some 13th/14th gen are actually Alder Lake. Did Raptor Lake start going back up in price? I thought 13/14700K and 13/14900K were going for less? Maybe supply is dropping to the point that they are going back up in price. In fact, 14700K is hard to find on Amazon and surprisingly expensive elsewhere (~$400+), while 14900K is easier to find and maybe not a terrible value at mid-$400's depending on how you look at it (namely raw performance of course, lol). Even if supply is short, which is probably is, it does make it seem like this issue isn't priced in. I'd much rather grab a 250K Plus or 270K Plus. Reply
thestryker DS426 said: Did Raptor Lake start going back up in price? I thought 13/14700K and 13/14900K were going for less? RPL has definitely gone back up. After getting my 270K Plus I joked to a friend about how much cheaper the 14700K must be now only to find out it cost more. Reply
rluker5 This article is very misleading. The evidence of it being related to widespread degradation is circumstantial at best. Claiming it as assumed fact is what is misleading. You can read more specific information it is based on here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950764Seem to be some error with the way Firefox software is having 8 bit registers compose 16 bit values on Raptor Lake and not any degradation. Maybe RPL CPUs are made wrong or the Firefox version's code is just made in an incompatible fashion, but they changed the way they did it in code and the CPUs magically "undegraded" and these unknown number of recent crashes evaporated. Could even be cumulative ram errors as RPL has a hard time running higher XMP in most motherboards (this wasn't a significant issue prior to DDR5) and the crashes don't seem to be reproduceable, just happen at a statistically higher rate with RPL. That and it was originally an issue that amounted to about a dozen worldwide weekly crashes per the Firefox dev forum, and Gabriele is still looking to source degraded some CPUs to someday be able to effectively reproduce crashes for verification, so was not significant AFAIK. Which, as a RPL user with Firefox as my secondary browser on My PCs for the last decade or so suspected because I've had 0 Firefox crashes on any of my 3 RPL PCs. And I'm using 151.01.131 right now. It is good that they are paying such attention to the reliability of their software though. Reply
setx rluker5 said: Seem to be some error with the way Firefox software is having 8 bit registers compose 16 bit values on Raptor Lake and not any degradation. It's not an error in Firefox but also has no relation to CPU degradation. It's way worse: an errata that those CPUs incorrectly execute some memory write instructions so the data in RAM becomes corrupted. Reply
rluker5 setx said: It's not an error in Firefox but also has no relation to CPU degradation. It's way worse: an errata that those CPUs incorrectly execute some memory write instructions so the data in RAM becomes corrupted. Not sure where you got that from since this is a rather isolated and correctable example, but wouldn't you get the exact same symptoms with unstable ram? Which if, on Raptor Lake, you enable an XMP profile of over 6400 on an average or lower 4 dimm board is not uncommon. And wouldn't that ram instability also be exacerbated by higher case temperatures in the summer, which the source from the previous Tom's article on this same topic stated as a correlation before the crashes basically went away? How many people that only enable XMP stress test their ram? That used to be something you would just do if you started overclocking past XMP. I'm surprised there haven't been more complaints. Reply
bit_user I was curious specifically how they fixed it. I think this is it: https://phabricator.services.mozilla.com/D301917 It's a more surgical fix than I expected. Reply
bit_user rluker5 said: This article is very misleading. The article is fine. The confusion comes from your stubborn refusal to accept the Raptor Lake degradation. rluker5 said: The evidence of it being related to widespread degradation is circumstantial at best. Claiming it as assumed fact is what is misleading. According to the Mozilla bug report you linked, all of the instances of this failure are coming from the same CPU models. rluker5 said: You can read more specific information it is based on here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950764Seem to be some error with the way Firefox software is having 8 bit registers compose 16 bit values on Raptor Lake and not any degradation. It's not all Raptor Lake i7/i9 CPUs, nor every time the affected ones execute that code. There's some real nondeterminism happening, and that's almost certainly due to flaky hardware. rluker5 said: they changed the way they did it in code and the CPUs magically "undegraded" What they found was that an 8-bit mov sometimes turned into a 16-bit one, clobbering some bits that it shouldn't. So, instead, they changed it always to do 16-bit movs in a controlled way. rluker5 said: Could even be cumulative ram errors No. Memory errors occur on all manner of CPUs and have all manner of effects. rluker5 said: the crashes don't seem to be reproduceable, just happen at a statistically higher rate with RPL. They're not reproducible because they're nondeterministic, which is just how buggy or flaky hardware often manifests. However, they did happen on different machines and with ongoing regularity. rluker5 said: That and it was originally an issue that amounted to about a dozen worldwide weekly crashes per the Firefox dev forum, At first, yes. Just a few chips started failing, and then the rate increased as more began to fail. rluker5 said: Which, as a RPL user with Firefox as my secondary browser on My PCs for the last decade or so suspected because I've had 0 Firefox crashes on any of my 3 RPL PCs. And I'm using 151.01.131 right now. If your CPUs had degraded badly enough to hit this crash routinely, I'd wager the machines would be pretty unstable overall. Reply
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Reference reading
- https://www.tomshardware.com/software/mozilla-firefox/SPONSORED_LINK_URL
- https://www.tomshardware.com/software/mozilla-firefox/after-a-year-firefox-finally-stops-crashing-on-intels-raptor-lake-cpus-mozilla-releases-new-version-patch-critical-flaw-on-intel-13th-gen-and-14th-gen-cpus#main
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